|
[杂谈]【雷界新闻+翻译】大门正考虑改变3bvs排行规则 (20/3758) |
|
|
|
|
大门的主贴写道：
There have been many talks about 3bv limits or other rules for the 3bvs ranking. It would be nice to solve this problem finally. I can not remember all the places we discussed it, so am starting a new topic to collect all opinions. There are a few things to discuss:
1. A 3bv limit? Obviously no 'Lucky' games. (If you want limits, I like 10-40-99). What do you think about someone who does 5 lucky clicks and 1 solve to get a high 3bvs?
2. A time limit - eg, no 1s games? (I used to apply this 'rule', but the 'Lucky' rule eliminates most of these).
3. Weights - should 10.65 Beginner be given the same weight as 3.70 Expert?
我们已经多次讨论过在3bvs排行榜中引入3bv限制等规则了，这次最好一次性完全解决掉这个问题。我没有办法找到所有我们曾经讨论过此事的帖子，所以我重新开帖来收集大家的意见。以下是讨论的重点：
1.是否需要引入3bv限制？明显地，我们要排除那些单纯靠“运气”扫出的录像。（如果你们需要这样的限制，我推荐10-40-99分别为初级-中级-高级的3bv下限）。你们怎么看待某些人<插：这里明显指莫GG>凭借5次随意单击加上1次有意识开空而得到的高3bvs数据？
2.是否需要引入时间限制——比如说，不承认1秒以内完成的录像？（我曾经采用过这条“规则”，不过上一条关于“运气”的规则已经涵盖了这一条规则的大部分适用范围）。
3.有关于权重——3bvs为10.65的初级是否应该与3.70的高级赋予相同的权重？<插：现在大门网站上3bvs排行榜的综合指数（黑色那项）计算公式是：（初级3bvs*10+中级3bvs*40+高级3bvs*99）/149。例如Kamil：(9.62*10+6.62*40+4.95*99)/149=5.711。10-40-99分别是各级别的雷数，149=10+40+99。学过统计的都知道“加权平均”的概念，采用适当的权重可以得到衡量玩家实力的最好指标。>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Harryck Repse回复：
It's tough to say what should be allowed on 3bv/s rankings and what shouldn't. I think it's pretty obvious for expert and intermediate but beginner is tough... personally I'd like to see beginner removed entirely from all rankings but I don't think that's going to happen any time soon. When you mention beginner requirements it brings Chinese player Wen-Xiong Mo to mind. He has a non-lucky 0.95 on a 10 3bv board for world record 10.53 3bv/s (as well as two lucky sup10 5click 5 3bv games), so when you try to add his achievements to the 3bv/s world ranking it skews his total greatly. Right now, Wen-Xiong Mo is ranked first on saolei.net among Chinese players for overall 3bv/s, and if his 10.53 3bv/s game were to be accepted on minesweeper.info it would put him at second in the world, behind only Kamil. This becomes a problem because he's barely good enough to sub60 on expert and doesn't even have sup3 on expert. So my point of all this is that the weighting idea is probably the best, so as to not completely ignore the impressive feats of such players but also so that true skill is ranked. Intermediate and expert should be kept the same but beginner should be divided by 2 or 3.
btw, what does the second black number on 3bv/s ranking mean?
很难判断哪个成绩应该被采纳而哪个不应该。我认为这一点对于中级高级来说相当显然，但是对于初级来说很困难……就我个人而言，我希望把初级从所有排行榜里完全移除，但是在最近一段时间我不认为这可能发生。当你提到对于初级成绩要有所限制时，你必须考虑中国玩家RPD<插：嘻嘻……>，他在一个3bv为10的局面下不凭运气地扫出0.95秒的成绩，并且创造了世界纪录10.53 3bvs（同时他还拥有两个纯运气的sup10成绩）。当你试图把他的成绩加入3bvs排行榜时，这种规则将大大影响他的总成绩。如今，在saolei.net上所有的中国玩家中，RPD在3bvs总成绩一项雄居榜首；如果minesweeper.info承认他的10.53 3bvs成绩，这将使他居于世界第二<插：现世界第二DT的总成绩是17.5，而RPD是18.04>，仅仅落后于Kamil。
这些问题之所以成为问题是因为RPD只能很勉强地sub60<插：58.48s on 110 3bv，59.14s on 138 3bv>，甚至还没有在高级上取得sup3的成绩。所以我的观点是，加入权重可能是最好的办法，以此在榜单上来兼顾令人印象深刻的成就和最高超的技艺。中级和高级应当保持原状但是初级应当用你说的第2点或者第3点来区分。
顺便问一下，3bvs排行榜上第二列的黑色数字是什么意思？<插：Harryck不知道这就是我刚提到的“综合指数”>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
原帖地址见http://www.minesweeper.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=160
好吧我只是顺便练练翻译而已……
------------------------------------------------------------------------
babz说:
The 3BV limits would be great for beginner, for intermediate and expert it won't make any difference since all records are made on high 3BV board. Think to the intermediate, on 30 3BV board, to get a sup4 you need to almost break the world record...
The 10 3BV limits seems rigth for beginner.
The first number in the ranking is the normal sum, and the second is the weighted sum with the number of mines in each level.
3bv限制对初级影响很大，对中高级几乎没有影响，因为所有的纪录都出现在高3bv局中。例如在中级，要想在30 3bv局中扫出sup4，你几乎就需要打破世界纪录了。
初级以10 3bv作为限制看起来不错。
排行榜中第一列的数字是正常相加得到的3bvs总和，而第二列是加权值，用每个级别的雷数来计算的。
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
fritz loehr说：
harryck: that is a weighted sum
10/149 beginner + 40/149 intermediate + 99/149 expert
a ranking based on this formula would look like this:
1. (1.) kamil - 5.711
2. (2.) dion - 5.087
3. (4.) manu - 4.971
4. (5.) pavel - 4.842
5. (10.) fritz - 4.812
6. (3.) tian - 4.766
7. (7.) zhang - 4.722
8. (6.) damien - 4.687
9. (9.) ian - 4.602
10. (11.) mao - 4.489
11. (8.) tam - 4.480
12. (21.) reid - 4.465
13. (30.) lukasz - 4.461
14. (17.) roman
this ranking would still take all levels into account, but 1.00 3BV/s improvement on beginner has the same effect as 0.25 3BV/s on intermediate and 0.1 3BV/s on expert (namely 0.06 points inmprovement), so that the players' main focus is on expert and intermediate as it should be ("just play beginner until you have a 1s game").
iirc this formula was the result we came to when the topic was discussed on irc for the first time.
this weighted ranking is my favourite solution.
however, a formula based solely on the number of mine is a bit arbitrary, although avg 3bv, avg zini, number of mines would lead to similar results.
harryck：那是加权值。计算公式是：
10/149 初级 + 40/149 中级 + 99/149 高级
如果用加权值来排行，结果是这样的：
<加权排行：名次.(加权前名次.)玩家名 - 加权3bvs指数>
这样的排行仍然考虑了所有级别的成绩，不过初级1.00 3bvs的进步与中级0.25 3bvs以及高级0.1 3bvs的进步相当（加权3bvs指数均增加0.06），这样雷友们的主要目标就是提高中高级成绩，就像本来应该出现的那样（“只要不停地扫初级直到你有一个1s的成绩为止”）。
在IRC的讨论中，这个公式是我们初次讨论此事时就提出来并获得一致认可的。这个加权排行榜也是我最喜欢的解决方案。
不过，这样一个单单只是根据雷数设计的公式显得有点随意了。当然，根据平均3bv，平均zini或者雷数来设计的公式都将得到类似的结果。
------------------------------------------------------------------
kamil muranski说：
I also like weighted ranking, but I also dont want to allow Mo's 1 on 10. 3BV limit for beg doesn't solve the problem, as this guy showed that u can get lucky 10 3bv game. I think we should set totally different rule: at least 50% clicks for beg record must be made on purpose. It's obvious that 10 3bv solved using only 2 clicks on purpose can't be considered as a world record (3bv/s is supposed to show player's speed).
我也赞同加权排行榜，但是我也不想去承认RPD在10 3bv局上扫出的1s。初级的3bv限制并没有彻底解决这个问题，因为这个人向我们证明了你可以扫出一个凭运气的10 3bv局。我认为我们应该设立一个完全不同的规则：初级至少50%的点击必须是有意识点击。显然那个只用了两下有意识单击扫通的10 3bv局不能被承认为世界纪录（3bvs的设立是为了表现一个人的速度）。
------------------------------------------------------------------
Micheal Gottlieb说：
I do actually think beginner 3BV/s matters - OK, maybe more so for NF players like me, but it definitely does show something worth looking at (essentially, max burst 3BV/s). So I wouldn't really want to remove it. In the normal timed event a low beginner time just means you got lucky, but in this case, a higher beginner 3BV/s really does mean you played a better game. The weighting is fine and I wouldn't complain if the ranking was ranked based on that alone, but the 3BV total is useful and should be kept there.
I'm really not sure about the 3BV limit though. My current best beginner 3BV/s is on 11 3Bv with only two 3BV opened randomly at the start (including the opening) and I don't feel like this should be just barely legitimate. I think it would be better to just have a lucky rule that takes into account the number of 3BV gotten with lucky clicks (1/2? 1/3?). For any other difficulty I'm not sure taking luckiness or 3BV into account is worth the effort, since I've never really seen a truly lucky board outside of specially created cases (like the IOE WR boards).
我确实认为初级3bvs很重要——当然，也许对于我们这些NF流更加重要，但是这项数据确实说明了一些值得关注的事情（例如最大瞬爆3bvs）。所以我不赞同真的把这一项除去。在通常以时间计算的数据中，一个短用时的初级仅仅意味着你运气好，但是考虑到这项数据，一个高的初级3bvs确实意味着你扫得更出色。加权的主意很好，而且如果排行榜真的仅仅用加权3bvs来排行，我不会抱怨什么。但是总3bv值仍然有用而且应该保留下来。
对于3bv限制我保留意见。我现在初级的3bvs纪录是在11 3bv局创造的，其中只有2个3bv是在开局随意的点击时完成的（包括了开空）而且我并不觉得它不符合规则。我认为最好规定一个判断是否幸运的规则，计算因为无意识点击而翻开的3bv总数（1/2? 1/3?）。对于其他难度<插：他指的是中级高级等等>我不认为有必要引入这些规则，因为我还没有见过一个真正幸运的局面，除了一些特殊情形（比如说IOE世界纪录的局）。
|
|
最近一次修改:2011-12-22 12:04:22
|
|
|
|
The 3bvs ranking is getting updated but has major problems. These have been talked about before (3bv limits, lucky solves, etc) but no definite decision has been made afaik. I started a forum topic to collect your opinions because the topic is all over the place (irc logs, guestbook) and it seems about time a rule was made. Thanks!
这个我不翻译了，大家自助吧……上体育课去了
|
|
我不知道喜欢玩初级哪儿不对。。
如果是为了让人去玩中高级而削弱初级成绩，那它的初衷本身就是不合理的。。。
主要是看了EWQSweeper的话
this ranking would still take all levels into account, but 1.00 3BV/s improvement on beginner has the same effect as 0.25 3BV/s on intermediate and 0.1 3BV/s on expert (namely 0.06 points inmprovement), so that the players' main focus is on expert and intermediate as it should be ("just play beginner until you have a 1s game").
我很想回他
something like focus on expert "AS IT SHOULD BE" sounds really ridiculous to me.
|
|
 好像中枪了.
|
|
- -感觉读了几年大学以后,英语水平呈直线下降趋势..
不过,他们显然就是不服RPD初级这么牛,想用规则拉RPD下马- -略显卑鄙...
許せないから....
|
|
期待lz继续
国际网的规则就是一团糟。04年Andrew Lee的中级11.97引发了3BV限制的大讨论，而他的成绩至今依然有效…
RPD的10.53不被承认，大概还是有人眼红吧，就像PM的1.13…
|
|
|
第二点完全是针对RPD的0.95的的那个录像哎，赤裸裸的羡慕妒忌恨啊。限制时间，真想的出来，这游戏本来就是怎样才能玩得快。
|
|
Fritz说话风格一向如此……除了NPC提到的那句话倒也还是有一定道理的
RP太好被人嫉妒也很正常吧。呵呵。同支持RPD
某人自称英语不好来秀日语啦~哈哈
AL那事挺老的，我还是第一次听说。明天有空我会翻译一下babz（这谁啊？bertie？），fritz，kamil，micheal这四个人说的。
每次改规则都要平衡各方利益（这词用的），kamil的反对可以看作是在保护自己所保持的世界纪录，虽然表述上是为了维护扫雷理念的纯洁什么的。当然两方面的原因其实都有。参与不了的话等结果也好，不过有能力的人最好去表达一下我们中国玩家的意见。以上
|
|
注册个号不是难事的样子。。。
大家整理下想法我贴过去就可以了么。。。
|
|
|
|
